I have always been in this toruble. My clients are almost non technical. Their demands are sometimes so rubbish that they are not going to be implmented technically. When I try to explain them about it. They ask me a simple question "Do I want to work or not?" I know that many of hte programmers would be facing this kind of problems somewhere in their lifetime and throughtout the career. It just becomes like a battle between me and my clients. After explaining them slowly for hours they just stick to their policies and it seems to be that I am just wasting my time totally in front of them saying something in some out of this world language. Any info on this would surely help me and others not to shout on their clients in future.

Due to the nature of clients, it is important to try not to get too wordy with technical explanations. Those who do not understand technology tend to be intimidated by it.

Have you tried implementing alternative solutions to their demands? For example, if they want something completely impossible with the current technology, maybe there is something that would serve the same purpose and cause them not to ask questions about it? What about them asking for programming that would take entirely too long? Is there a solution that you know of that would serve the same purpose with less work involved for both parties?

Can you give a suggestion on the type of programming that you are asked to do for clients? I am trying to imagine some of the things that the non-technical clients are asking you to do.

Well one example is that I got a SEO project from one guy. We started talking about the price of it. During negotiation he said he doesn't wants reports because if I create reports where and when the links and the directory submissions are made it will take me more time lets say 5 hours more on the agreed work. As I would copy paste each URL in excel and then forward it to him. Which in end I was knowing he would just delete it from his HDD.

I agreed at discount rates and when the work was done he wanted the report. Which now I didn't had. As I haven't memorized all the URL's where I have submitted his link. It would have been better if I was told to make the report but after the submission are done I didn't had anyway to make a report of it.

From programming point. I was talking to one client of mine. His web development is under my reponsibilites. He said that "Hey man why aren't the sites generating any revenue?" I said it is a marketing problem but he wouldn't listen he thinks it is my programming side. It wasn't even my responsibility but I explained how to go on building links and providing good services to clients. I explained him that he is admin of the sites. It depends on him that will people come to his site or not. Would people buy his products and services or not. He wanted it to happen programmatically. Which was not possible in any circumstances.

In your first example nick, it sounds like you needed to get the deliverables/exclusions in writing before you start the project.

Then when the client asks for more, you can point them to the document that they signed and say: look: exclusion #34 "No report will be supplied"

The second example is similar.
If the client signs a contract which has a deliverable of say:
a 10 page website about X with a forum and space for adsense

Then you can say to your client: You didnt sign a contract for a revenue generating website.

If the client wants to sign a contract which says:
a 10 page website about X with a forum and space for adsense, which earns $50 per month

Then you explain (and put in a contract) that this will be an ongoing development, for which you will charge X upfront and X per month.

Yes RCRiver I will have to do all this stuff. Because this is getting more and more. They want everything that was not mentioned along with whatever was mentioned.

I think I need one legal advisor fast about getting the paper work right. Sometimes it is okay when the project is small or the demand is smaller one. But sometimes the demand is totally out of the scope. Like the incident No.1

I was wondering how would I give him the report of the submissions now after a week of completing the submissions. This time it wasn't even the trouble of wasting time on report generation. It was not possible for me to keep remembering and writing down the report for more then 1000 directories.

In end I figured out a way. I checked my browser history for all the pages visited for submissions in that period of time and spent 3 hours excluding the non directories sites from it and created a report. Still I can say it was not very amusing.

I hope you charged him extra to compile the report?
The problem with clients is that if you give an inch, they take a mile.
Now that he knows you will do things for free, you may find he does it over and over.... :shouting:

Charge? :(
I just managed to keep him off to file a case against me in paypal. Yes you are right. Now he knows so he will be stretching this too much. I am not dealing anymore with people like him. I might have lost a client but then he has also lost one marketing person.

hmm, you do have a problem if you are taking payment via paypal.
the client can go to paypal and get his money back very easily. more and more I read threads about sellers who have had the buyer get a paypal refund and then keep the goods.

That is tough, I am not sure what to recommend. All my clients have been in the same country as me (UK) so I either receive payment in cheque or via bank transfer.

I have a couple of comments:

1) Unless you are desparate for work, make sure you feel good about your client. If they are pushy and demanding for discounts then 9 times out of 10 they are not going to be worth what you get from them and the stress and headach they cause.

The same is true for those that are asking you to do something that you know is wrong. Better to send them to your competitors then to try and make them happy.

2) As RCRiver say, you need to create a document and I don't think it has to be a contract or be seen by a lawyer. In the document you clearly state what you will do for the project, and you can state what you will not do. The client should get a copy and sign and return it or at least agree in an email that they agree. This allows you to go back and say "Yes, I will do that, but it is in addition to our agreement and I will have to charge you for it.". The document is your proof of your agreement and clears away all doubt and exposes any lies. It really protects you and the client.

3)Sometimes, as in this case, if you know what the client is likely to "really want", you can do something like make the report and then when they ask for it, charge them or at least save yourself the time you needed to go back and do it. (I very much admire your effort in taking the time to do that work, by the way! You deserve only good clients!!!).

4) For my SEO projects, I make it clear what I do, and that is I increase the qualified traffic to the site by between 2-4 times. This is a conservitive promise that I know I can deliver. But I also tell clients that I can get the traffic, but I can't get them customers.

If there are problems with the site like poor design, bad navigation, high prices, and so on, people are just going to leave. So I always include with my site analysis for SEO, some feedback if I think the site can be improved. I don't want to do my best work and then have the client think I suck because no one buys anything.

I am not "responsible" for their sales, but I am "concerned" about their sales and I let them know that.

5)If a client request something, like using keywords for which no one is using to search with, then I may do the work for them, but I make sure they understand that I am not responsible for poor results and highly recommend that they reconsider their request.

6)I ask for payment by check, even if the client is overseas. I ask for about 50% before I do much work, and the rest when I am done. I do take PayPal, and I never considered that someone might make a claim against me. There is no reason why you cannot as a client for references. If you can't tell, ask them who designed their site for example. Then contact the company and see what kind of client they were to work with. You can also search for their email address, name, company name, or phone number in Google and see if you can find out something about them.

I check out everyone that contacts me. Just searching their phone number in Google is enough to find out some things if they are in business.

Really good points nielsencl. I will get this things rolling. Most of my clients are foreigners. I will arrange for a fax machine so that I can send and recieve fax copies of the agreements signed by me and signed by them.